This question came up on the forums I’ve been active on. I think this question has fascinating implications but may never be answered with any degree of certainty.
Where the point of no return (the point at which a narc cannot be healed) exists on the narcissistic spectrum isn’t a question we will probably ever know. However, I have a couple of theories that ping ponged around inside my head.
1. Level of sadism/paranoia. (these traits were suggested by another forum member)
I think the ratio of ASPD traits to NPD traits would come into play–and most ASPDs are at least somewhat sadistic. I don’t know what the percentage of ASPD traits would have to be (and maybe it would vary in individuals anyway) but obviously a narcissist with a lot of ASPD is going to be more sadistic, and therefore more malignant/psychopathic, and that’s the point where no self awareness is possible–when a narc becomes malignant or psychopathic. Paranoia would come into play too, as I think paranoia rises with sadism. The more malignant the narcissist, the more paranoid (and sadistic) they will be.
For more, please see my article about The Dark Triad.
2. Soul-murder/cognitive dissonance.
My second theory about the point of no return is going to sound a little strange. I don’t believe the world is just the physical world we see. I’m not especially religious and don’t interpret biblical events literally but I am Christian (Catholic) and believe with no doubt that evil exists. Whether there’s an actual entity called Satan is not something I can answer. But I think there are evil entities, or energies, and I think M. Scott Peck’s book “People of the Lie” explains all this brilliantly (and was the first book to explain malignant narcissism even though it wasn’t called that in 1983). It was also the book that helped me identify my mother and my ex as MNs.
Anyway, I think it’s possible for a person (a victim of abuse) to be infected with the evil of another person. If it goes on long enough, the victims’ “narcissism fleas” (N traits picked up from their narcissists) can become cancerous and turn into full blown narcissism. If the victim was especially abused or sensitive (or was both scapegoat and golden child) they may be more covert but are still N.
I think choice also has to do with it. If one sides with their abusers all the time, or colludes with them in antisocial acts, I think something in the person’s soul can turn dark.
Once this darkness sets in, a person who was low-mid spectrum moves higher on the spectrum into malignant narcissism and can’t go back to being the way they were. That’s the point of no return. This has happened in wartime, with soldiers forced to do things that go against their morals like killing innocents, or accidentally killing a fellow soldier in combat — when these veterans return they suffer severe PTSD but for some, who were forced to commit deeds that went against their conscience and morals, they crossed a line into evil.
I think the mechanics of what happens is that when one makes a choice or is forced to do something that goes against their morals, there’s so much cognitive dissonance that a split in the mind occurs, where the person, feeling so guilty over their deed that it’s unbearable, takes the side of evil, to correct the dissonance.
I think all PD’s may actually be complex PTSD (c-PTSD) that is more deeply embedded in the personality.
As far as narcisissts lower on the spectrum (low-through mid spectrum)–and I absolutely believe it’s a spectrum disorder like autism–a non-malignant/non ASPD narcissist isn’t evil and hasn’t crossed the point of no return. It won’t be easy to get that “skeleton transplant” (and will be extremely painful!) but it can be done.
I hope my BPD wall of words made sense (someone told me that all BPD’s write posts that are as long as books with a lot of run on sentences, LOL!)
Although this post is more related to people who have NPD or BPD, I think it belongs here too because transformative experiences like this can happen to anyone when healing from any mental disorder begins to make itself felt.
Narcissists can be divided many different ways–covert vs. overt; somatic vs. cerebral; malignant vs. “benign,” etc. They can be divided another way too. Narcissists are either extremely emotional…or cold as machines. Underneath their mask, they’re all hypersensitive though, even if they hide behind a stone cold exterior. Malignant narcs are the HSPs who went bad. Somatic narcissists are probably more likely to be hyper-emotional, similar to people with HPD; and cerebrals more often the “cold, calculating” type, though not always.
I’d venture to guess emotional, dramatic narcs have HPD or BPD traits (borderlines can’t regulate their emotions) while the colder types have ASPD or Schizoid traits. Avoidant PD traits could go either way.
I wonder if any studies have been done to determine which MBTI types narcissists are most likely to be. I’d guess the emotional ones are probably INFJ and the second type INTJ. I don’t think most narcissists are that extroverted, even if their mask includes extroversion and sociability. Narcs really don’t like people and are too self-involved to be anything other than introverted, in spite of any outgoing front.
This means there isn’t a whole lot of difference between an emotional narcissist and an unemotional one, except for the thinking vs. feeling aspect. But even when they don’t show it, all narcissists are emotional and easily hurt when it comes to themselves. None of them feel much for others.
I think this is brilliant.
Click to enlarge.
I thought this article fit on both my blogs. It’s something I was thinking about earlier.
This was a comment in another post but I wanted it to be a blog post because I think it’s a good nutshell explanation of what covert NPD actually FEELS like, filtered through self-awareness:
I feel like…”everyone’s better than me and has more and I deserve to die because I’m a worthless POS”…but underneath THAT is this “how DARE they have more, I’m more SPECIAL and that’s why I don’t feel like bothering with you and people are stupid for rewarding you for not being all that,” (but this defensiveness stems from my fear of them getting too close and seeing nothing but a black void under that).
And under all THAT–inside the VOID I can’t let anyone see–is the true self I’m seeing more and more of, as she shows herself more. She’s creative and sensitive and cares about people–a LOT. That void isn’t empty at all, but I have to go in there and face the darkness…
Does that make sense?
We have TWO masks, not just one.
So it can’t be Aspergers. Aspies don’t have all that RAGE..and self hatred…and fake hidden grandiosity and bitterness…
I still have a long way to go but I’m feeling pretty good about it all. I hope that’s not being grandiose. I’m actually happier than I’ve ever been right now because I lost something really toxic during that bizarre journey of a week ago…I still get emotional (in a good way) thinking about it…
I woke up this morning feeling good. I’ve been feeling somehow…changed since my epiphany a week ago. I have been a little more grandiose acting, which I think is partly due to the outer mask of inferiority and worthlessness falling off during my trip down the rabbit hole.
In church I prayed for humility and asked God to not let me become too full of myself and to keep things real. Because I know grandiosity will be my defeat in the long run and the things I have planned ahead could be ruined by that. I never saw my grandiosity before, but then again I kept it hidden, even from myself, under an emotionally self-flagellating, almost masochistic social mask.
I was excited about my daughter’s big news. She wanted my malignant narcissist ex (her father) there also, so I knew it had to be pretty big.
Her boyfriend (well, fiance!), Ryan, asked to speak to us alone, separately, and actually asked each of our permission to marry our daughter. How chivalrous and old school and gentlemanly that was, and of course I said yes. I think he’ll actually get down on his knees and propose formally once she picks out a ring (they’re at the mall tonight). Anyway, I like the guy. He’s humble and quiet and financially stable. My ex also gave his blessing.
I found myself mouthing corny old cliches like, “I’m not losing a daughter, I’m gaining a son” and “never go to bed mad at each other!” (I said the same thing to my ex when we married but of course we always went to bed mad). So I had to laugh at myself for that. Suddenly the bustling, fussy mother-of-the-bride mode took over and I started spouting all kinds of ideas for the wedding. It’s going to be small and informal, possibly outdoors, most likely in April, right after her 23rd birthday.
Knowing what their news was in advance (mothers always know), I had brought over the tea-length informal wedding dress I wore when I married her father in 1986 (actually I found it in the prom department and it was a lot cheaper than similar dresses found in the bridal department). I made her try it on; it fits her almost perfectly . It’s a little loose in the bust but she can wear padding or have it taken in, depending on whether she wants to go fuller on top or not). She’s an inch shorter than me too, so the dress is slightly longer on her but that’s okay and actually looks better a little longer.
The first picture shows what the dress looks like on her.
The second shows the same dress on me at my own wedding 29 years ago. She wasn’t interested in the ridiculous 1980s headpiece I;m wearing, but I can’t say I blame her for that. 😀
I was feeling expansive and loving everyone after the wine I had and the announcement, and I started thinking how nice it would be if there could healing in this family, if there wasn’t always so much drama and animosity. So in my tipsy state, I decided to approach my ex and tell him I thought we were both narcissists, and then apologize for my part in the mess our marriage became.
I told him I was a covert narcissist (and explained what that was because he didn’t know), he did two surprising things. First, he told me he didn’t think I was a narcissist (after gaslighting me for years telling me I WAS one!)
I told him why he was wrong, because covert narcissists don’t act like grandiose ones. I explained a little about the mechanics of the narcissistic mind, and about the false and the true self.
Then I told him (gently) that I thought he was a narcissist too, that in fact I knew he was, but I didn’t hate him for it.
He said that based on what I’d said (he trusts my opinions about psychology since I majored in it and always impressed him with that line of knowledge) he knows he may be a narcissist. But then he told me he had something even worse–Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD)–an actual diagnosis, which he’d known about for months. It came around the time I wrote this rant about his being rewarded for being a potentially homicidal psychopath. Obviously, my BPD rage was coming out in that article but it makes me laugh now. I can’t believe how much I’ve changed since I wrote that. It’s kind of embarrassing to read it now, even though I had every right to be mad as a caged hyena.
He still was able to gaslight me a little though, and said I was “manic” and “bipolar” about my excitement about both the wedding and my plans for my two blogs down the line and a possible book (an idea’s finally forming in my mind about what the book will be about but I’m not saying anything yet). I realized (with more than a little embarrassment) I was being a little grandiose (since my epiphany, I’ve become VERY aware of my narcissistic behaviors when they come out and have to catch and stop myself sometimes), but here he was calling me “manic.”
But at least he isn’t denying he’s a narc. Although we will never again be friends and I still avoid him as much as I can (low contact), I can tell he’s mulling the idea that he’s a narcissist in his mind and somehow I think that could lead to a kind of understanding, which would be nice with our daughter’s wedding coming up sometime early next year.
Also please see my article, 5 Reasons Why You Should Never Tell a Narcissist They’re a Narcissist
My daughter wants me to come over today because she and her boyfriend say they have some important news. They want her father (my ex) there too.
They are obviously very much in love, going by their almost sickeningly adorable Facebook entries about each other, LOL!
Of course I immediately wanted to know if she was pregnant. She isn’t. That’s a relief!
I think I know what it’s going to be.
She has changed so much this past year, just as I have. She is so much more mature than she used to be and is finally making some good choices. She’s also talking seriously about going to college. I think this time she means it.
This isn’t related really, but these are some late summer flowers I took pictures of at church this morning.
I’m so glad I talked about it. Everyone has been great. There have been no negative comments and hardly any unfollows, which surprised me. I’ve had a few comments like these though:
“You can’t be a narc, you’re too self aware and have too much remorse,”
“You’re a good person, so that can’t be true.”
“It’s just a bad case of ‘fleas'”
“It’s probably really just complex PTSD mixed with BPD”
“It’s probably NVS (narcissistic victim syndrome).”
Denial is understandable; I denied it too. For months. And it could be that all those things are true too. Narcissism is, after all, a result of being a victim. Narcissists are the most damaged of all victims, so damaged they became what was destroying them. And until (and if) I can get an official NPD diagnosis (which I probably wouldn’t get anyway, because I don’t fit the classic DSM criteria for NPD), there’s a possibility that I don’t have NPD at all, covert or not. Narcissists low on the spectrum aren’t necessarily bad people who have lost their humanity, but they are broken people and some want help. BPD symptoms and Avoidant PD symptoms mixed together can also look a lot like covert narcissism, but a few things didn’t fit–like the hidden resentment, envy and grandiosity I thought everyone felt.
In addition, because of the intensity of the emotions and events that led to my discovery and the surreal and almost supernatural coincidences that began to play out immediately after, as well as an enormous feeling of relief and a completely shifted vantage point where I could now see myself as others saw me, I can only believe my disorder is real and not a figment of a deluded imagination.
I feel like the copious tears I was able to shed just prior to and during my epiphany both cleansed me of some of the toxic, angry emotions I was always carrying around (suddenly I feel something closer to actual empathy!) and helped carry me to the next step of this journey, which is healing.
I know the next phase will be even more difficult. I doubt I can do it alone. I started a new blog intended to act as a therapy tool for this second big phase of my journey (and is also intended to help others in similar positions find their way), much as this blog has been a therapy tool for the first.
Because there’s no way I can afford the type of therapist I’d need, I’ve decided to search for a university clinical psychology program that uses BPD/NPD patients as “guinea pigs” to people training to be therapists, especially in reparenting/psychoanalytic (not just behavioral like CBT) techniques.
During my crisis last week I thought the shock of finding out the truth would kill me. But it didn’t and now I think it’s the most pivotal moment in my life. It also proved to me that God not only exists but loves me very much, because this revelation came after weeks of prayer that I thought were falling on deaf ears. I was almost ready to give up my faith because nothing was happening.
I was even losing interest in writing.
And then it happened, when I didn’t expect it. It hurt more than I can describe in words. But so does bearing a child–something wondrous comes after all the pain. God doesn’t always make things easy.
I’m not sure what’s going to happen down the line, but that’s not for me to know yet.
The idea to start a new blog happened after the dust settled so I think that was part of his plan for me.
If I’m right and God has taken the reins of my journey, I have faith he’ll direct me to the right therapist.
I’m both scared to death and excited as hell to meet my real self and for us to become reacquainted.
I think the true self comes out through art and creativity. For some narcissists, the “art” they produce isn’t real art but trash. But if they’re at all able to suspend their false self while creating (and I think some do), their art can be honest and beautiful because it’s coming from a place of truth.
Writing is when my true self is at its strongest. So I’m taking things from there.
I’m not sure which direction this blog is going to take. I’m not sure how to reconcile writing about narcissistic abuse without seeming like a fraud, even though that’s probably stupid because it’s not as if I wasn’t a victim of abuse. I was for my entire life until a year ago. Getting away from my narcs brought me the clarity I needed to get to this point. I don’t even want to think of what I might become if I had never escaped.
If anyone’s afraid I might abandon this blog, I promise I won’t. Just like I wouldn’t abandon a first child after having a second. However, for the time being I may focus a bit more on the new one, because of my need to write about things that would fit better over there right now, as well as mundane things like setting it up, putting some “meat” on it, and getting it established.
I’m not sorry this happened at all. I’m grateful. I feel so much better now, almost happy!
Lucky Otters Haven 