The #1 thing that makes me question God’s existence.

why-god-why

TRIGGER WARNING: Photos in this post may be triggering to abuse survivors.

I believe in God. I also believe God answers prayers and God sometimes even performs miracles. I’ve seen it happen in my own life, and in the lives of people close to me.

But tonight I was reading a site about abused children–not children with narcissistic parents who grew up into emotionally damaged, but physically and mentally normal adults, but children who never had a chance at all. Children like 3 year old Jeffrey Baldwin, who was tortured almost from the day he was born, and whose photos show both the emotional and physical destruction of a human being, and ended in a painful, horrible death by starvation at the age of three. Or children like a 4 month old baby girl, whose name escapes me, who was repeatedly raped and tortured by her own father, and died of internal injuries. These are just two examples of children who God seems to have forgotten, but they are far from the only ones.

PLEASE RETURN IMAGES TO PHOTO *P51 PRON *U42 GRAPHIC NE-JEFFERY-B@@IP1AW6Z3@#STAR@#@#MAIN@#NEW@#@#CITY Various images throughout his life, other faces in images other than Jeffrey should be obscured.
There’s bruising on Jeffrey’s face, but he could still smile.

AppleMark

AppleMark

Jeffrey Baldwin, second from the right.  He could no longer smile; in these later photos he looked this way in almost every picture, before the light went out in his eyes.  

 

Local Input~  UNDATED -- JEFFREY BALDWIN -- Photo of Jeffrey Baldwin at the time of his death from evidence provided by the coroner.  The inquest into the murder of Jeffrey Baldwin, whose grandparents beat and starved him to death began Monday, September 9, 2013.  Jeffrey weighed less than 10 kilograms and was emaciated when he died of starvation in November 2002. CREDIT: CORONER EXHIBIT (source: From: "McConnach, Robert (MCSCS)" ŠRobert.McConnach@ontario.ca>, Rob McConnach -Coroners Constable , Office of the Chief Coroner, Province of Ontario, 15 Grosvenor St., Toronto, Ontario, M7A 1Y6, Tel. 416-314-4200, Fax 416-314-3935 )/pws

Local Input~ UNDATED — JEFFREY BALDWIN — Photo of Jeffrey Baldwin at the time of his death from evidence provided by the coroner. The inquest into the murder of Jeffrey Baldwin, whose grandparents beat and starved him to death began Monday, September 9, 2013. Jeffrey weighed less than 10 kilograms and was emaciated when he died of starvation in November 2002.
CREDIT: CORONER EXHIBIT
(source: From: “McConnach, Robert (MCSCS)” ŠRobert.McConnach@ontario.ca>, Rob McConnach -Coroners Constable , Office of the Chief Coroner, Province of Ontario, 15 Grosvenor St., Toronto, Ontario, M7A 1Y6, Tel. 416-314-4200, Fax 416-314-3935 )/pws

 

A few days ago, there was a thought provoking and inspiring article called The Surprising Gifts of Suffering on the Dreams of a Better World blog (the post is in two parts), in which my friend speculated on the reasons why God allows people to suffer, some horribly. For emotional abuse victims, her argument that God is attempting to hone us and shape us into something more and draw us closer–knowing our souls are strong enough to withstand the abuse–make a kind of sense. We may not realize we were even abused until 40, 50, or even 60 years of age, but once we realize what happened to us, that’s when we begin to heal. Then we have something to teach the world. Many of us grew close to God because other humans proved to be so untrustworthy. We may never fully overcome the emotional damage, but if we keep an open mind and ask the right questions and learn the right lessons, we can reach out and begin to help others who were in the same situation. God knows we have the ability to turn our pain and suffering into something good and beautiful, which may be the reason we got handed that particular crappy deck of cards.  Maybe.

I can even understand, to a point, sick and starving children in third world countries. Although they live in unimaginable poverty and squalor, suffer physically almost from the moment they are born, and in all likelihood will die at an early age, they usually still experience joy, acceptance, and love. Their families suffer along with them, and photos show these children being held and loved by mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, friends, and neighbors, who are all in the same boat. They don’t suffer alone. The healthier among them may still even laugh and play.  Not knowing anything about prosperity, they are more able to enjoy the simple, natural pleasures that life offers.

But when I read about a case like little Jeffrey Baldwin, I just shake my head in sad bewilderment. I don’t understand how God could allow something like that to happen. For what reason? Some people may think it’s because God allows free will and Satan has dominion over a fallen world. But as I explained in a post I wrote a few days ago, I don’t believe the devil, if he exists at all, has that much power. Even if he did, why wouldn’t God step in and protect a helpless child who never had a chance, who no one prays for and no one cares about? If God loves us all, why would he allow an innocent life to be completely wasted, with no chance of redemption? Even if their souls go on to heaven, why would he put them here on earth, if their only fate here is to suffer and then die? If yelling at and cursing God is a kind of prayer, as a commenter the other day suggested it really is, then I guess I’m praying when I angrily implore to the heavens, “God, why THE HELL do you allow these things to happen?”

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About luckyotter

This blog is my journal. I just choose to share it with the world instead of keeping everything inside my head. I'm a recovering Borderline and have also struggled with Avoidant Personality Disorder. I also have Complex PTSD due to having been the victim of narcissistic abuse for most of my life. I write mostly about narcissism, because I was the child of a narcissistic mother, and then married to a sociopathic malignant narcissist for 20 years. But there's a silver lining too. In some ways they taught me about myself. This blog is about all that. Not all my articles will be about NPD, BPD or other personality disorders or mental conditions. I pretty much write about whatever's on my mind at the moment. So there's something for everyone here. Blogging about stuff is crack for my soul. It's self therapy, and hopefully my insights and observations may help others too.
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51 Responses to The #1 thing that makes me question God’s existence.

  1. Diana says:

    I am full on 100% a diehard Christian, have been since a young child and this is one of the issues that causes me upsetness that will never go away and there is a part of me that will always be hurt and angry with God that this kind of thing happens to children and animals. I have never had a satisfactory answer from God about this issue and I find no comfort in the bible for it. I am not OK with it and I am comfortable being upset about it and still being a Christian. I never hide my feelings from God anyways since He is “all-knowing” but I journal and cry about it a lot in life. For me, even when my life is what I want it to be, this is a problem for me so I call myself a “Conflicted Christian” and when atheists bring this up to me I tell them I am upset about it too and I don’t have the answers for them as to Why God!!!??? Why indeed!? I am also upset about things like I was born in the USA but some poor souls are born in North Korea and my heart aches for them. So unfair. I love Jesus but I am not OK with this reality in life of being an ambivalent Christian. I can’t make it OK or make it make sense and I accept for me it never will. Thanks for your brave and honest sharing! No human has all the answers and I don’t think Christians should be in lala land pretending this kind of thing isn’t heartbreaking. I have come to a place that until I am in Heaven with God on earth this will always bother me about God even though I do get He actually wants all humans to never abuse each other ever…

    Liked by 2 people

    • luckyotter says:

      Hi Diana,
      I know many Christians who also feel this same way, and this is why I hate thinking about this sort of thing, because it causes me to doubt. In my mind, I can kind of/sort of reconcile this by considering that reincarnation may be a reality (I know that’s not a Christian belief, but it would make more sense in explaining something like this). I’ve racked my brain about this, and nope, no answers. I wish I knew why.
      I’m glad you brought up animals. As an animal lover, I’m as outraged by the abuse and torture of innocent animals as I am of children.

      Like

  2. In the photos you can see what was going on, the progression of the abuse. Imagine the cold, lonely, confusing world of this little boy. So unfair. Why didn’t anyone else see it? Or did they and just not intervene?

    Like

  3. I just saw the video in the link that you provided. So it was assumed he would be safe from his mother by being with his grandparents and it only got worse. Both times it was done by a woman(the abuse). Do you think it’s because a woman is more likely to get away with it because it is not expected from them? His story is so bad it makes me feel less bad about my own. I mean it’s really bad, he had no chance and you can see in his eyes and facial expression that something was terribly wrong. In his case death turned out to be the best thing. It was his only way out. But it shouldn’t have been. So it was like he had been removed from his mother and placed with the grandparents and there was no follow-up.

    Like

  4. I feel like, Its a question that cant be answered. The “why” from the victims cries and the “why” from those who love, care and support the victims. Thank you for posting this. Alexis

    Liked by 1 person

  5. nowve666 says:

    “If yelling at and cursing God is a kind of prayer, as a commenter the other day suggested it really is, then I guess I’m praying when I angrily implore to the heavens, ‘God, why THE HELL do you allow these things to happen?'” Remember Tevyev in Fiddler on the Roof? He was always “praying” like that.
    I think if there weren’t suffering and death, there would also be no religion. It’s suffering and death that create the necessity for religion. Religion is man’s way of trying to make sense of our mortality.
    Catholicism does one of the best jobs in reconciling us to pain. Someone called extraordinary suffering “the kiss of Jesus.” Believing that God, Himself, had to suffer makes mankind’s suffering more meaningful.

    Liked by 1 person

    • luckyotter says:

      I agree with this. Frankly, Catholicism is the only form of Christianity (besides Eastern Orthodox, which is very nearly the same) I can tolerate. I also like the liturgical Protestant churches (Episcopalian/Anglicanism, Lutheran) but basically it’s watered down Catholicism. I liek the history and the recognition of Mary, who is venerated, not worshipped. I have issues with some things though–women in the priesthood (I bet that will change), birth control, their stance on gay marriage, etc. Even so, these things are minor to me and do not affect me. I’ve always been drawn to the Catholic church. As a child, my Catholic school was my refuge from the insanity at home. I converted last year. I don’t regret it either, even though I get some weird looks when I tell people I’m a Catholic convert.

      I also believe in transfiguration. I love the idea of the host becoming the body and blood of Jesus, and I believe that’s what happens. No Protestant church believes that. It’s actually Biblical, and in my RCIA classes, the priest showed us the passages in the Bible that supports transfiguration, but being that I’m not too good at quoting from the Bible I cannot tell you where to find that.

      Like

  6. katiesdream2004 says:

    Thank you for this thought provoking post. God doesn’t cower in fear and hide in a corner and cease to exist when we ask such questions which are to me a proving and growth of our faith. Is God real or not, is God a narc monster at best and an indifferent impotent divinity at least? Years ago I had a deep crises about believing in God over the issue of children being tortured to death by abuse, I decided for Him to allow such heinous abuse and evil He either couldn’t intervene, or wouldn’t intervene

    If he couldn’t He was too weak to be worshiped, If He wouldn’t He was too evil, in either case my only conclusion was agnosticism or atheism. I resolved this by an all night screaming wrestling match with God, something I will blog about rather than try to write about here. THis is a good question and yes, our narcissistic abuse is a walk in the park on a pleasant day compared to an 8 year old girl sold into slavery in a brothel in Thailand to be abused until she dies. I have a lot to say about this and will do so on my own page.

    Lastly about the article you quoted which I wrote. I need to clarify I absolutely do not believe God sends suffering because He knows we are strong enough. I am weaker than the average person. Before the affliction in my life really increased I gave up at the drop of a hat. God has used what people meant to harm me with to build a stronger faith in His help. I was impossibly weak before things got hard for me. I believe that the affliction was the mercy of God to help me quit being so fragile.

    I’ll be blogging a more complete reply to the question of “why” but as I said before whatever I write isn’t adequate compared to the tomes written about this massive theological question,

    Liked by 2 people

    • luckyotter says:

      Thank you for clarifying your point, Katie, and I’ll revise my post later. I think that idea might have been my own, but I do think God might let certain things happen to draw us closer to him.

      There is actually a saying by the philospher Epicurus, which is often quoted by atheists and agnostics, and which I used to quote myself when I was still agnostic (I considered myself agnostic until October 2014) :

      “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
      Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
      Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
      Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

      Liked by 1 person

  7. Marcus says:

    I can’t “like” this post — but I’m sure glad you posted it.

    Liked by 1 person

    • luckyotter says:

      Are you having problems with the Like button? A couple of people have told e they are. Or do you mean you can’t Like it because it isn’t something you can like?

      Like

  8. Quixie says:

    Oh Lucky, this shows that you have a very compassionate heart!

    How to reconcile the belief in a God who are interventionist when you have tangible evidence of massive amounts of human suffering is a really tough one. It’s hard to justify.

    The opinion I’ve come to personally is that I no longer have the need to know why God allows it because I no longer believe there are any gods. That may sound hopeless to some, but for me it has alleviated so much of my own suffering, as a person who deeply feels others’ pain. The question of Why is no longer an issue because the answer is this: people do really really really shitty things sometimes, and for a variety of really shitty reasons. It turns my question away from Why? to What? As in, what can I do to help reduce the suffering I see in the world?

    And maybe regardless of a person’s religious beliefs *that* is the question that needs answering for each individual person: What can I do to help reduce the suffering I see in the world?

    Liked by 1 person

    • luckyotter says:

      Thanks, Quixie. I think this is the question that has driven a lot of people away from religion. It’s unanswerable. I think that last question is what we should all be asking ourselves. That’s the most important thing.

      Liked by 1 person

  9. Susan says:

    I read all 3 books of Dave,” the child called “IT” Dave Pelzer
    I ended up giving all 3 to my narc ex ive discussed here on your blog many times, as he was abused…
    looks same in this family? they singled out ONE child and treated the rest good/right?
    trust me those other children even if they were never abused by being touched hit starved are severely traumatized for life also and they become abusers,they were taught to be on the abusers side to survive… and way too much to even explain here.. but im sure you all know…the dynamic of being purposely chosen as the NOT abused child…its the SICKER of the twisted abusive parents is intentionally singling out one… to make that child feel even MORE he deserves it by being tortured to see his own siblings “ok”
    some parents rage and have issues and abuse ALL their children equally
    but when you single one out that’s a whole different thing..you truly INTEND that child to not only be hurt but to believe its his fault… and reinforce it.. by showing “other humans” around it..
    my God I cant….
    its like you said..in the third world, the whole family suffers with the child although I can pretty much guess that THIS very situation can happen more easily as a result.. (if you get $5 once a month.. you might just.. do some singling out too…this dynamic can happen in the cruelness of poverty)
    but this is deliberate.i see the picture of the child and I say what I always say to his soul “you were loved and this was not your fault”
    but I can hear him and all of us still say “then why?”
    I can say one thing, as many now feel coming to this world.. the time of judgement.. the “cries of the people” have “reached” heaven and He has heard..
    I know He always hears but there are still all those verses which denote a “cry” collectively and a “time”
    a limit does exist.
    we just wonder.. why a cycle.. if a “limit” we fear also …. it can happen again.. that’s my underlying faith issue/fear as well…
    trust means never not maybe..not if.. not when.. not even “limits”
    all Christians and people of all faiths are asking why
    some evil abusers seem like misplaced people to me. I mean even on earth and this is how they protest and rebel and show … hey I am not even supposed to be here….
    that’s my only explanation.. their desperation to leave this earth and to say.. I am wronged somehow too by even being here… (a twisted sick psychology) but what a person BELIEVES deep down is WHAT makes them commit atrocious acts
    if I were a refugee just “passing through” id treat all kind… on the way
    I have met many bitter souls who feel ripped from heaven and therefore “could have been” in a much better lace.. how is that an excuse to abuse? all that does is reinforce the fact that they shouldn’t never been in a better place at all.. and shouldn’t even be THINKING of such a place
    honestly the child was their heaven… to me… to have one and love one is heaven…
    many blame their child..
    they think because it came from their body it also carries their soul
    that’s the saddest thing of all
    “and the children born will be strangers to them” many abuse CHRIST HIMSELF because he is indwelling inside… bearing this all… and then they go to church and pray to him..
    I know this for a fact…
    bible says a female bears it too..daughter zion….
    “when you didn’t visit me, when you didn’t feed me?” Jesus says… if you didn’t to one of these little ones you didn’t to me.. they said “but we didn’t see you in those situations”
    do you think these twisted people ONCE felt in heaven or with Jesus and NOW in a position where He is saying “its Me you are hurting?” and they just snap and feel betrayed?
    I often wonder this
    its no excuse we all serve a time on earth a life on earth where you show and prove who you really are…
    look
    the “vile one” SWITCHED the times…
    book of Daniel
    I never think there is a worse abuse then giving someone love and heaven FIRST and then….saying now you are in a hell and have to earn it
    its psychological abuse…
    its not trustworthy
    besides the “vile” one did it…
    he will “scatter the power of the Holy people” he will PLACE the abominations in the holy place…
    he will be broken without help
    but we all ask
    why… how he was given this power to BREAK and scatter holy people… and place filth IN the holy place that cause “desolations”
    its him we are all arguing with and fighting in our souls… saying why..not God
    he has power over the holy people for a time it says
    “we are fighting with powers in high places”
    he gets broken without hand(help) it says so….
    Jesus “world is under power of the wicked one but be of good cheer I have overcome the world”
    like I said before, I am not an ends justifies the means person so.. I still cant… “accept” it..so the wicked ones “power” STAYS IN POWER
    because WE keep saying…. why?
    I know its hard!! but I feel that too… the wicked one is ALSO saying “see..?? if God is so great and holy then why can I keep doing this to you… he wont save you”
    it is US who BELIEVE the wicked one when he keeps saying that…..

    Like

    • luckyotter says:

      I read “A Child Called It.” It was an upsetting read, and I agree with you Dave was singled out as the scapegoat. Somehow he found the right people at age 12 (a teacher who cared) and got away, and today he is a motivational speaker and writer. Dave is an amazing inspiration. Maybe I should review that book sometime. I have to read it again first though. It’s been a long time.

      Liked by 1 person

  10. Susan says:

    “let no MAN take your joy away”
    well Jesus
    he did
    if its US doing the “letting” are we to blame for that too?
    goes round in circles
    I was always disturbed by that verse
    are we supposed to be zombies when we turn on the news.?. are we supposed to seem even “mental” and JOY when we hear these stories?
    “let no man take your joy away”
    yet he also says its HIM being hurt when we are…
    the problem seems to be any false god or any entity as we have seen even with our own families trying to RULE our hearts when only we can.. the heart is natural and ours only.. only we can say whats natural and doesn’t feel abusive… it has to be in chronological order…
    seems no one can rule our hearts
    we are human
    God made the heart
    and many try to rule it
    no one has done a good job yet but ourselves.
    Jesus seems to be saying keep smiling
    “have joy when all hurt you persecute you murder you despitefully use you etc
    but a true sacrifice dies in misery saying
    “but you were supposed to love me and not do this”
    it doesn’t then smile.. and say “well Jesus loves me”
    I went through this, with my family.. I was so full though of the HolySpirit that I DID keep smiling but a NATURAL TRUE joy.. not to spite them.. I was IN REAL joy while they were miserable and it made all their abuse worse…
    and I kept praying and coming out the next day all joyful and shiny again like nothing ever happened
    and again they were incensed,determined to end my joy until they REALLY did….
    who can make sense of this all
    forcing me to come to both conclusions is not a good idea
    “she is tossed to and fro never comforted”
    “she will be utterly forsaken by BOTH her “two dreaded Kings”
    GOOD
    seems they were trying to rule over her and she was only tossed back and forth not comforted
    like we are everytime.. we try to understand these things we can search and search and always come to TWO irreconcileable conclusions
    what lies do we believe?

    Like

  11. mandibelle16 says:

    Hey Lucky. You wonder what most people wonder about these terrible crimes, and what people wonder when something terrible happens to them or their family. From my understanding, it goes back to original sin and free will. People are not good as many of us think. We’re innately sinful bc of Adam and Eve’s choice in Eden. We are bad because we are inclined to be, even when we mean to the right thing at times. As the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. But we all have free will and with Jesus’ grace we can choose to do good, be good people, be God’s children and because of that we know the difference btw right and wrong and choose which way we will go.

    People who do these awful things to children etc or are mass murders, I believe there is something more wrong with them. First, they have chosen to ignore what is morally right and to do bad. Second, I think there is some type of unholy addiction they have, especially when they keep killing etc. So they like all of us, are broken, but even more so then the rest of. They allow themselves to get to this point with their choices where they don’t see or do good
    They give into their inner evil. Also, they twist in their minds what is right and wrong. Not to mention, some people are born without toes or a limb, some monsters are made without a conscience. These guys are the true psychopaths or sociopaths. Also, another saying that isn’t biblical perhaps but true, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Feeling you have power over children or your family or a country/ Europe. (Hitler) messes people up big time. There are reasons are gov’t are only in power so long. Those are my thoughts. Hope they help 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

    • nowve666 says:

      “People are not good as many of us think. We’re innately sinful bc of Adam and Eve’s choice in Eden.” Are you saying God made people good but they (we) all turned bad when Adam and Eve chose to eat the apple? Doesn’t that suggest that they are the only humans to have free-will? Did original sin strip us of our will? But I’m pretty sure traditional Christianity says Adam and Eve ate the apple because they (we) were already flawed. The real problem, to my way of thinking, is that God created flawed beings (us) and then judges us for being the way he created us. Sure, Jesus died for “our sins.” But only people who believe in him (Christians) get to heaven. Because we are generically unable to be worthy of heaven.

      Liked by 1 person

      • mandibelle16 says:

        I don’t agree with you. When God created people, animals etc he said that “it was good” meaning he created a perfect world. Adam and Eve always had freewill, they only had to not eat the forbidden fruit. But they chose to because they wanted to be like God. God setting boundaries doesn’t make Adam and Eve imperfect before Satan tempted them and both chose to eat the fruit. Having the ability to choose (having freewill) did not make Adam and Eve sinful. When they were perfect and chose, they always chose right.

        Free will still exists but we are no longer perfect beings, as in were are usually not going to make the right choices and have an innate sinfulness, as well as we sin by our actions, choices, sins of omission etc. God knew we would sin, but he created humans and the world despite that fact.
        He created us perfect, and when we go to heaven we will be perfect again. But on earth we are both innately sinful and sinful often by choice. Yes, God’s creation was perfect. I don’t know how reading the beginning of Genesis, you could think otherwise.

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        • nowve666 says:

          Is it possible for a human to be good enough to go to heaven without Jesus? Many Christian proselytizers say we can’t. If we were perfect before the fall, Adam and Eve made a choice for the rest of us and limited our freedom of choice at least. But then you wrote, ” Having the ability to choose (having freewill) did not make Adam and Eve sinful. When they were perfect and chose, they always chose right.” So when they were perfect, they always chose right? That’s logical. But they chose “wrong” so they must have been imperfect before they choose? Which is it?

          Then there are the Calvinists who say that, being omniscient, God knows who will be “saved” and who will be “damned.” That’s certainly logical but it raises theological questions about the goodness of God. Why create someone who you know will be damned. And you wrote, “God knew we would sin, but he created humans and the world despite that fact.” Your arguments would make a lot more sense if there were no Hell. If our “imperfection” could be healed and everyone perfected in Heaven, God would be much more benevolent than the one who made people, knowing some would be damned.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Susan says:

            to add to my chapter 1 and 2 …then comes shortly after chapter 6
            “sons of God” saw daughters of men looked fair.. (same as tree looked good too/compatible etc) and created a race of giants
            clearly two different creations..
            chapter 1 and 2 ..are at the root source for chapter 6 to happen
            only Noah was “perfect in his “generations” (creation that he was.. seedline) and saved
            no doubt.. God and Lord God are not doing the same things
            GOD has male and female to create in His image
            Lord God clearly says He did not have that…. and had to go to great lengths to make a female ,FIRST he was unsuccessful among the animals
            and THEN he did a cloning.. where was this Lord God of chapter 2 FEMALE creating abilities as contrasted to chapter 1?
            since she was a clone..
            the serpent went to Eve
            for a reason
            knowing… Lord God isn’t God. and that he “took a man”
            to this day we have nephilim and Bible says so…
            Jesus said “it will be same as in the days of NOAH “marrying and giving in marriage”
            we already know days of Noah meant nephilim were on earth and “marrying women”
            also… book of Daniel says “they will again attempt to mingle their seed with the seed of men/but this time it will not cleave”
            chapter 1
            chapter 2
            not same

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          • mandibelle16 says:

            The Bible says people are Good in the beginning. They were able to choose and always choose right bc they were perfect. The one subtle difference is the tree of knowledge. They weren’t allowed to eat it. Therefore, in that one thing they can choose wrong. Being able to choose wrong doesn’t make you imperfect. The actual choice made Adam and Eve Imperfect – sinners. Before that moment, they were good. Not to mention, they never had a serpent there before encouraging them to sin. When sin came it corrupted Adam/Eve all the way down the gene pool/ the whole of God’s creation with disease, natural disasters, death etc. Therefore innate sinfulness is passed down to all of us.

            God created knowing people would sin but his original creation was good. That’s what I know and believe and if you believe differently that’s up to you.

            Thanks for chatting!

            Liked by 1 person

        • Susan says:

          God does say in Bible “can she who is accustomed to doing evil, be good?” He said it with “can a leopard change its spots?”
          accustomed to doing evil?
          maybe just what..so used to it.. ?
          also daughter Zion is told in lamentations chapter 2-3
          “shall we not accept good as well as evil from the hand of the Lord?”
          seems she is told to “accept” the evil as well?
          (but then could she be blamed for it?)
          well it says she takes a heavy punishment at that time…and “will understand later” and not to be “arrogant” or else her “flock” will be taken captive.
          seems all very threatening….
          an example of this threatening is to esther.. “save your people the jews” she is told.. “do you think you yourself will escape the decree?” (to kill all jews, and she was “secretly jewish herself”)
          to us who are wise to narcs
          indeed.. all the verses towards women seem abusive,emotionally manipulative and scapegoating all the way
          I am a believer so what I always tell myself is she is divine.. and the “lord” is not GOD…they are differentiated in the Bible and I suppose we are to notice..
          difference in “love and character and behaviours!”
          I mean just look at it
          vashti is KILLED for a “word of mouth” (could have been lies )
          insert esther
          esther is threatened as well.. with her very life!
          if ANY of these “bible situations” happened to ANY OF US today in America we’d be wise to it and it would be all over the news and outed…
          they simply had no choice…
          because that book of Esther and her story is so problematic ive heard even Jewish rabbis say that Vashti faked her death on purpose.. allowed esther in to save her people etc etc o mean it can go SO MANY different ways because each characters morality and ability to REPENT is always present..
          we usually hear beginning middle END with certain characters LOSING THEIR LIVES as a GOOD thing! a righteous decree! (haman and his ten sons KILLED)
          if replayed.. well.. haman might make a better decision…
          all stories are moral teachers and the flip side does always exist…
          but that’s seen as “devils advocate”
          but any KILLED persons soul “speaks from the ground” like Abel
          saying “but I didn’t know that”
          in isaiah 29, she/a girl “speaks GHOSTLIKE from the ground…”
          she is dead but still talking…..

          Liked by 1 person

          • mandibelle16 says:

            Still don’t know what you’re getting at. The OT is pretty much looking towards Jesus and doesn’t have too much relevance because in the NT because Jesus was born and died bringing hope to all the world for whoever believes in him. Honestly, those other OT verses are important but not when it comes to Jesus being born and his saving Grace.

            Liked by 1 person

        • Susan says:

          “it was good” in chapter one
          it was NOT good in chapter 2
          chapter one has a decree it was good and SO IT WAS
          chapter 2.. has a conniving serpent,. a tree of evil it was NOT GOOD
          I say this because chapter one says GOD
          chapter 2 says LORD..or Lord God
          yes sorry everyone they are different
          it says so!
          it says the Lord TOOK A MAN
          and placed him east of the garden…
          it says “adam is alone” and he “couldn’t find a suitable helpmeet for adam among the animals!!!!????????” so he placed him in a sleep and essentially CLONED a woman..even adam SAYS flesh of MY flesh bone of MY bone
          chapter one GOD does not have this issue , chapter one GOD makes then in his image “male and female ”
          chapter 2 lord God who “took” a man went to animals to “find a suitable helpmeet” he didn’t have a FEMALE image of GOD to make as chapter one
          that’s WHY the serpent entered conniving KNOWING THIS

          Like

    • luckyotter says:

      Right, I know evil people exist, but why doesn’t God step in to protect the helpless and the children from evil? That’s what I don’t understand if God is benevolent. Sure, I understand about free will and how we changed from perfect to imperfect, etc. (although I don’t interpret the Bible story literally) and God had to set some boundaries, but you would think he would protect the innocent. Right?

      Liked by 1 person

      • mandibelle16 says:

        You would hope. But you don’t understand No one is innocent. “Far all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Romans 3:23

        Everyone, every small child is a sinner. And to God all sin is the same, it’s the same even that small child knowing if he cried out mommy will come when he doesn’t really need mommy he’s only bored.
        That’s one thing to look at. It also means life isn’t fair.

        Second freewill means bad people do bad things due to there free will.

        Also, God gives people every opportunity through others, ourselves, the Bible, baptism etc. to help people believe in Jesus.

        Death is a part of life. We are dying from the day we are born. When it’s your time it’s your time to die, no matter how you go. Yes, there are awful ways to die but Jesus defeated death and we live I heaven with Him when we die if we believe, no matter how we died.

        The Bible is literal in many aspects most importantly it’s main message in John 3:16 ” For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not parish but have eternal life.

        Also John 1:1 “In the the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

        We call the Bible Gods word and John tells us this word, Gods message existed before anything and it was with God but also God’s words are Him. So when we learn messages, stuff from the Bible we are learning the ways of God himself, that existed before we were even a glimmer. This message ( The Bible) in some form of another existed in the beginning of time and will always exist because God exists because he was the only one there in the beginning.

        Like

        • luckyotter says:

          What about a teenage girl with atheist or Jewish parents who got sold into a sex slave ring and was never told about Jesus or Christianity? Is she going to hell? Not only is that unfair, it’s unconscionable. I simply cannot believe in such a judgemental, angry, jealous, narcissistic God. And if God really is like that, then I’d rather not worship him at all. But I don’t believe he is. I have a LOT to say about this (and already have, a few days ago).

          Also, what about people who try and try and try to believe, but just can’t? I *almost* fall into that category. Here’s an example. Try as I might, I *cannot* reconcile what I know about science (and I do NOT believe Satan “planted” any:scientific evidence to fool us into believing in evolution or that the earth is 3.5 billion years old and not just 6,000 yo) with the “history” presented in the Old Testament. I think it is meant to be allegorical, not literal. Many Christians believe this, but we’re not fundamentalist Christians. I also have asked Jesus to be my savior just like it says in John 3:16, and talk to him/God every day. I keep an open mind about things, even fundamentalism–and not once has God ever led me to believe I am going to hell if I do not interpret the Bible in a literal manner.

          Check out the website Jesus Without Baggage. I basically believe the way the blog owner does.

          Liked by 1 person

          • mandibelle16 says:

            I don’t know everything lucky. And I don’t view God as fundamentalist or an angry unjust God. I just know growing up in the Lutheran Church, that we were told every person in every religion or a person who doesn’t believe in God at all at the moment, has the opportunity to know God in their life. We are not always privy to how others know about God and what there choices are but I do know everyone has a chance, and that is fair.

            I know you feel some people are unjustly hurt or suffer. I think you said something about God testing people, and bringing bad events or circumstances into there lives to bring them closer to him. It doesn’t seem right, but in the end, God takes bad choices and bad times for a purpose that is for the good of all.

            Sometimes the Bible is allegorical. But there is historians who are not Christian or were not, and can line up the timing of other events in history with the events in the Bible. And honestly, I don’t agree the earth is only a few thousand years old. You will find there are Christians who do not.

            It is quite possible for God to have begun the universe with a Big Bang. Not to mention, God’s time is not necessarily inline with how humans tell time. We don’t know how long Adam and Eve were in Eden. Or what an actual length of day was for God creating the earth. We don’t know what was happening outside of Eden. So I do agree with you I think the earth is older then many Christians believe.

            But also remember, because science believes something so, does not mean they are correct. Science is notoriously wrong about things. But they also help, to prove truths in the Bible at times.

            I don’t know what to tell you, but because you believe someone is an innocent doesn’t mean they are. No one is innocent that is what I believe. God still loves all his creations, but they are all innately sinful. Belief in Jesus is the way out. Like you said you asked to have faith so have it, believe God will take you to heaven one day because you believed in his son and that he knows exactly when it is the right time for people to leave this earth.

            Earth is not a permanent thing, heaven is.

            Also, you will believe what you like. I can share my beliefs but I’m not forcing you to believe anything. I’m just giving you the best answers I can. Hope this helps.

            Thanks for talking 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

      • Susan says:

        right! in fact it says Jesus says :” if your child asks for an egg do you give him a stone or a serpent?” we know if our child asks for an egg give him an egg!
        “if you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children.how much more your heavenly father?”
        WELL
        parents are not giving eggs theyre giving boatloads of serpents to their children and our heavenly father knows how to give so much better!!!
        what is going on???

        Liked by 1 person

  12. Susan says:

    heaven is not as secure as we’d like to think in our idealistic fairy tale minds about heaven!
    “heaven was taken by violence and the violent take it by FORCE”
    “no power at all you’d have over me unless it was give to you from ABOVE” -Jesus
    “we fight against principalities and powers in HIGH places”
    “flesh wars against spirit and spirit against flesh”
    “war broke out in heaven and Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels”
    and much more…
    “woe that my bitter mother of 7 has borne me!”-jeremiah
    even who BIRTHED you is in question in the Bible..
    “she who never gave birth has more children says your God”
    and yet
    “woe to you and to your children! when they shall begin to say blessed is she who never gave birth”

    no doubt one big dysfunctional mixed family.. on heaven and earth
    war over what? Jerusalem means “city of PEACE” and peace MEANS “between TWO”

    Like

  13. What you wrote in this post ties in with a post that I wrote yesterday, When I Yelled at God:
    https://ablogabouthealingfromptsd.wordpress.com/2016/05/03/when-i-yelled-at-god/

    I was agnostic, almost an atheist, for almost thirty years of my life, for reasons like this. But I have been a Christian believer and a Christ follower for the past thirteen years, because the preponderance of the evidence in my life compels me to believe.

    As for the book, A Child Called “It” — my momster called me one day about twelve years ago and asked if I had ever read it. I told her that I had. Then, in a very rare moment of self-awareness, she asked me if she had been as bad as that mother.

    The truth? In many ways she was worse. Which is a big part of why I was staunchly agnostic for nearly three decades.

    Today I have more questions than answers, when in comes to God and religion. And yet I believe in Him. I worship Him. Jesus Christ is my Savior and He is the Lord of my life. The preponderance of the evidence in my life is simply too overwhelming for me to continue in my disbelief. My reasons for believing in the reality of God, and in His goodness, are many.

    I believe God is. I believe God is love. I believe love is good and kind and gentle and peaceful. I believe this for so many reasons. Not the least of which is because I know that His love lives inside my heart.

    When I yelled at God… He was there! Seek Him and you will find Him, when you search for Him with your whole heart, holding nothing back.

    At least, that has been my experience.

    Liked by 2 people

  14. Here’s a good article, written by a Catholic priest, on the subject of Christianity and human suffering. I found it very helpful.
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2016/03/why-is-christianity-is-the-best-religion.html

    Liked by 2 people

  15. Thank you for sharing this. I just watched the link you provided. I wish I had watched it later, as now I am crying in public. It ripped my heart out. All I could think of was my three year old son. That witness… I hope s/he can sleep at night…
    Poor little Jeffrey. My his soul rest in peace.
    I still believe in God. He is has not turned a blind eye to this nor other bad things. He has his own timings for everything.

    Liked by 1 person

    • luckyotter says:

      I’m sorry it made you cry. 😦 I pray for him too. I wasn’t the most patient mom around, but I look at my kids (grown now) and can’t even imagine treating them like that.

      Liked by 1 person

  16. Alex says:

    8 If you see any oppression of the poor and a violation of justice and righteousness in your district, do not be surprised about the matter.+ For that high official is being watched by one who is higher than he is, and there are others who are still higher than them. 🌅

    Liked by 1 person

  17. Dr. William Craig, a Professor of Philosophy and the author or editor of over thirty books, is one of my favorite Christian apologetic authors. I went to his website, reasonablefaith.org, and typed “why does God allow evil” in the search box and got 10 pages of posts on this topic:

    http://www.reasonablefaith.org/search/results?q=Why+does+God+allow+evil

    Liked by 1 person

    • luckyotter says:

      Thank you for this link. This stuff is fascinating to me, maybe because I’m trying to find answers.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Same here. I already own a couple of Dr. Craig’s books, others I have read the free sample part on Kindle. Several of those books are on my wishlist. 🙂

        My late uncle was president emeritus of a small Christian college. He was a brilliant man with several doctorates; I have forgotten how many. Three, I think. During my agnostic, almost atheist years, it puzzled the heck out of me how my very intelligent, highly educated uncle could believe in God — and in Christianity, no less! However, as my spiritual understanding has grown over the years, now I wish so much that my dear uncle were still alive so we could talk about all this! But I do believe that we will eventually be reunited in heaven. So many of my precious loved ones are there already. My baby grandson, a very dear cousin, my heroic stepbrother, my loving great grandparents, several close friends. Wow, what a reunion that will be!

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  18. The concept of God shaping us through abuse seems more than unlikely to me. It seems more likely that God is a consciousness within, and abusers are disconnected from there inner consciousness. The sad part about it, is that some children are born into this world in dysfunctional situations.

    The only explanation I can come up with is that God is the power within us and that we can not control what others do.

    Liked by 1 person

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