Is narcissism caused by nature or nurture?

narc_child
Credit: davidwolfe.com

Although the consensus seems to be that narcissism or NPD (clinical narcissism) is a result of abuse or neglect during childhood, there may also be genetic factors involved.   An article from The Narcissistic Life cites several studies and concludes that narcissism results from a combination of nature and nurture, describing it this way:

These factors include biological vulnerability, social interactions with early caregivers, and psychological factors that involve temperament. There are studies that suggest that a gene (or genes) for narcissism can be inherited but that a person also needs the “right” environment for narcissism to be manifested.

What this means is that while a child may be born with a predisposition to becoming a narcissist, they won’t unless environmental factors are also fulfilled.  If the parents do their job well and give the child a secure emotional foundation, they will not develop NPD even if they are predisposed to it.    In this way it works a lot like alcoholism:  alcoholics are probably born predisposed to becoming alcoholic, but if they don’t take their first drink until they are well past adolescence or if the culture they are raised in discourages heavy drinking (or drinking at all), they will not develop alcoholism.

Some babies are born more demanding or needy than others.   These may be “difficult” children who are easily hurt or upset and have trouble learning self-soothing.   Such a temperament doesn’t necessarily indicate the child will become a narcissist, but they are probably more likely to than a calm baby who can soothe themselves, if the parents fail to mirror them properly or don’t attend to their emotional needs.

Most children whose parents were abusive or neglectful do not become narcissists.  They may develop some other problem like C-PTSD or BPD or be prone to depression or anxiety instead.  These are probably children who have a calmer, less sensitive or less demanding temperament than children who grow up to be narcissists.  Personally I think people who develop narcissism were children who were especially sensitive and had no emotional defenses at all so they sent the true self into exile and replaced it with a false one.   No other mental disorder causes a person to completely reject their own vulnerability and authenticity.

geneticNPD

It’s not always abused children who become narcissists.  Some are children who are spoiled by their parents. Spoiling may actually be a form of abuse, because it’s a lie and doesn’t acknowledge the child’s real self.  It still fails to mirror them properly.  The child is constantly told how perfect they are and showered with gifts and praise for being so “perfect.”  As a result, they feel like they must always be perfect which of course is a lie.  They feel entitled to whatever they want because of this belief in how perfect they are, and they never learn how to deal with criticism or setbacks when they get out into the real world.

I also think the nature of the abuse and role in the family plays a big part in whether a child develops narcissism and what type of narcissism they develop.   Golden children, who are essentially spoiled children, are more likely to become narcissists than scapegoats are.   Children who serve as both scapegoats and golden children (common in only children) can also become narcissistic, but I think they’re more likely to become Borderlines.   If a scapegoated child does become a narcissist, it’s more likely they’ll become the covert, fragile type of narcissist than the grandiose, overt type.

Some studies have also shown that narcissists’ brains have less grey matter in the left anterior insula region of the brain, thought by researchers to be involved with both the regulation of emotion and the generation of empathy.   But the jury is out on whether these brain differences are genetic or if the brains of narcissists fail to develop properly due to being raised in a narcissism-inducing (abusive or spoiling) environment.

Further reading:

Does Excess Praise and Spoiling Create Narcissists?

 

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About luckyotter

Recovering from BPD and C-PTSD due to narcissistic abuse from childhood. Married to a sociopath for 20 years. Proud INFJ, Enneagram type 4w5. Animal lover, music lover, cat mom, unapologetic geek, fan of the absurd, progressive Catholic, mom to 2, mental illness stigma activist, anti-Trumper. #RESISTANCE
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33 Responses to Is narcissism caused by nature or nurture?

  1. Lisa Mary says:

    I think some of it is a response to environment and abuse and some of it is, as you mentioned with babies, is a matter of temperament of the child. A had a deeply narcissistic friend who is a female and this woman’s temperament was that of an perpetual spoiled poutie child. If you were to draw a picture of her she would be a little girl with her arms defiantly crossed in front of her chest with an angry grimace on her face from morning till night. Just a willful , taxing, demanding , constantly challenging of authority little child. It’s a temperament which is often accompanied by some genuine advantages. They can be forceful and penetrating individuals who often are quite gifted. And it can be a very sexy quality in men. I actually interpret it as a very masculine temperament. But if it hasn’t been developed and tamed by good parenting you can have a nightmare of a child (and an adult) on your hands. But if that temperament and it’s accompanying positive characteristics were to be chiseled and refined (which you almost never see in our culture) ….you’d have one smoking hot man . And maybe thats what gets a lot of females into trouble. They want the edge and the testosterone and the leadership and the forcefulness that narcissism can project…..but soon after they discover that it was only a veneer ….and they are left with the willful, self centered, l pouting child.

    Liked by 2 people

    • luckyotter says:

      It’s true. Narc men can be very attractive and charismatic and codependent type women find themselves especially attracted to them. NPD is actually more common in men, but there are plenty of narcissistic women too, like the woman you described. Peel back all the charming window dressing, and what you get is a spoiled, whiney brat.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Lisa Mary says:

        Don’t forget Evil….some of them are really quite evil. Me no like Evil. Fortunately I can smell the Big Bad Wolf from six miles away now. And I know him no-matter how convincing his sheep clothing 🙂

        Liked by 2 people

      • Susan says:

        lol I don’t know if im coming or going at times, ive had such reverses pulled on me! ive had men,many men! say t me ACCUSINGLY that “something BAD happened to you!” in a horrific tone like its my fault!!!!!!!! I felt abused further therein! this whole thing is unbelievable. ive been scapegoated so much that I could turn red in SHAME and put my head down (back in those days years ago) for being told I was hurt! he said it in a tone that it was MY FAULT! people still try this with me,and tell me its MY KARMA. again still MY FAULT!
        I still have a humungous scapegoat light on my head flashing!!??? the thing that I hate the most in life that caused me the most pain and as a 42 year old woman people STILL say “that’s YOU” which gives me a fury none of you can imagine. that I “draw” sexual abuse to myself????????? no one seems to know the SHAME I feel is in them as humans! not for myself. for myself I do not accept that crap but they all say its “MY” crap. and because they cant find or seem to KNOW its NOT from this life.. they say its from some other life lol
        talk about manipulating. so if someone abuses you, you deserved it.
        I cant seem to escape those kinds of people.
        when I wont even offend a fly.
        I quit my job due to sexual harassment! but I was told by almost everyone it was my karma. women said “oh he doesn’t talk to ME that way,maybe she is lying” and more…. the scapegoat dynamic went from co worker to the office.. male and female!
        my brother’s girlfriend has all these same things happen to her and she just told me a few days ago she feels its us..not our fault..but the way we are she said “draws them to us”
        id love to NOT DRAW them! I DONT know how as id have to first admit im doing that! and I CANT.
        I don’t really agree with her yet.. I find myself in this situation continuously.
        she says simply “being nice and kind” and also she said “childlike” and not wanting to change that about ourselves.
        will “draw them ”
        ?

        Liked by 1 person

  2. Thumbup says:

    God! Glad I never had children!

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Susan says:

    I always felt like nature would NOT create it. the natural perfect ecological order of things. but thinking you “should be” loved will create it. if you saw OTHERS treated better than you. you fight and strive to get that. the ONLY reason I felt bad as a child/teen with my own household situation was that I SAW my classmates families and how they were treated at home and I got upset. poor people SEE rich and steal fight etc or just plain work hard and make it on their own. point is its always SEEN . some example we see in others. this creates a dangerous narcissist if he/she spent time in another’s lifestyle. say ..you had bad parents and some good ones adopt you.. and your life is great! when you go back to your old environment you will be hateful and hostile towards those people. problem is always the same with narcissists
    they want to ENJOY benefits and in no way contribute to them themselves
    they only want to RECEIVE.
    even Judaism has a term for “malchut” which means kingdom but she is also known as a daughter!
    this daughter they say has a defect or a deficiency and can only “receive”
    while the father of lights or mother from above Binah.. fills her ..with herself
    that whole DRAIN give/receive thing is a mess.
    when giving you should never feel DRAINED.
    if anything it multiplies! like light giving light
    these people sap light and end up in darkness.
    and sit around whining until you shine that light on them again. they’ll forever sit in darkness
    I do not agree by the way with the narcissist/sorcery (in my opinion) Zohar/kabbalah for this very reason.
    anything based on the light/dark/DRAIN ideology is not for me
    I wont condone it or contribute to it. its obviously a rampant belief system in this world
    its a problem. not a faith
    ok in quran.. allah says
    “allah would not but that his lampstand be made perfect,no matter how much they DETEST it”
    there is a whole lot in that statement
    these are CHILDREN
    but “foreigners to the true covenant”
    just because Jesus said “you must enter as children or you will not enter”
    they took it too literal… and think of child as to RECEIVE and be taken care of
    if ‘allah’ needs to perfect light by ANNOYING OTHERS or making them DETEST IT
    then that is not light
    “satan comes as an angel of light”
    ??
    what is this kind of light??
    it gets passed around and drained…put out thenback on
    revelations
    “you didn’t repent in the space of time “I” gave you so I will remove the lampstand from its place”
    its a game to them
    removing her light…. as a punishment… is not a correct thing to do (it says there that is Lucifer anyway and he fell for this same reason…says light went to his head)
    you would need your own light
    not someone to say aha ill take your light/lampstand away from you”
    David for this reason also said”i will not rest and give my eyes no slumber until I have created another lampstand for the Holy one of Israel”
    yes this is a common belief among humans. from ancient times
    its like there is one light and not enough to “go around” and like musical chairs the odd one out believes destructive things.
    the destruction is in “how to get” light. its taken. from others who have it. you never give it yourself.or make your own.or multiply it
    its as Zohar says a “deficiency”
    but its a deficiency of THOUGHT
    those who do well make their own light within them shine and do not ever say they will make “others detest it” as they make light
    that’s absurd!
    one candle lights another
    they think one candle goes OUT as they get their candle lit.
    and they taunt and tease when it seems to. they ENJOY that. they are glad and that’s pure jealousy.
    the one who feels hurt and feels their light is gone is also guilty.
    for enabling that thought process. if someone is hurting you and you keep smiling you do seem insane to them. distance is whats needed.
    allah also says “they thought they could put OUT the light”
    he says both concepts
    both concepts clearly exist in our minds
    its a problem and always a bigger problem that we all seem to say both
    “sorceress gave all nations her “maddening” MIXED wine” of “to and fro”
    we want light and we want it given to us
    but how is by never hurting anyone .
    the other person IS THE LIGHT. that you are supposed to kept lit
    not HAS (owns) light.
    but IS light
    well, I can tell you… Christianity says we are the temple,the BODIES we are in..houses the light
    wheras in Judaism they say to “gather it all up” as ONE lampstand for a “city” in a physical temple.. where we are citizens walking around
    the lampstand makes a transition from human bodies to a physical temple.jews are not happy Christians have light in individual bodies when they want one in the temple.
    that’s why there was talk about two lampstands and one drains the other.. and they call her “malchut of “the other side” who causes storms and such and Zohar even says “god did not cause the storms, malchut of the “other side” did.
    jesus said you will cry and mourn and be angry and they will JOY then they will cry and YOU will joy
    its a belief system,that there is ONE shared joy lampstand…that keeps getting switched around and it makes people dangerous as He even said “if they do this in a green tree,imagine when its dry what they will do?” etc
    “let eye be single and full of light but if it be dark then WOE how deep is that darkness!”
    I think its jealousy

    Liked by 1 person

    • Lisa Mary says:

      Susan,…lot’s of interesting insights. I like the sources upon which you are drawing. I myself would make it really simple and just draw from the Bible in the sense that the origin of most of the distortions associated with narcissism are related to things exactly like ,as you mentioned, Jealousy (covetousness) , Idolatry of the self, Bearing false witness (deceptive). Another words …breaking the moral code set forth in the Ten Commandments. In Judeo/Christian terms it’s called Sin. You sin…you open the door to unseen spiritual consequences…and this , in turn, has an influence on the personality. Sinful people have deceptive, manipulative, duplicitous, self centered (narcissistic) personalities . People who don’t sin and who are not inclined to take advantage of others tend not to have those personality problems. Note that prisoners (who tend to be highly Sinful in terms of breaking moral codes of ethics) are plagued with personality disorders. Prisons are chocked full of Cluster B personalities. Sin = personality distortions. So the origin of these problems is nurture in many ways. If your family of origin models immoral behavior from morning till night, as mine did….then you are very likely to inherit their immoral world view…and all the personality distortions that accompany that immoral word view.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Susan says:

        yes! thank you,you are right. the simplicity in Christ/holiness wheras people,like me who have been abused and am all defensive, I do sometimes seek to go overboard too in explaining..even though that also is USED by my “enemies” because I do the long way around front and back lol when its just as you say…sin! I out cart before horse or something at times. Isaiah 29 tells the girl “how you have turned things upside down!” backwards….but he says “as if the potter were thought to be LIKE the clay!” the problem is we are getting mixed messages from those we thought were authority and thought to LOVE US. such as a parent figure…. in a Christians eye… the average Christian I know! says yes in LOVE the “potter is like the clay” Isaiah 29 has a figure saying no I am not like my clay, I am better!? he says they have no right to talk back and say “you made us stupid” (some translations do say the word stupid!) and that they “torment the girl” it really is something. a mothers heart defends this creation,but he says they are just tormenting you… there is so much we don’t know……our biggest problem stems from “we are all the same”
        we maybe WANTED to be.. as everything would fit nice and neat in ONE moral standard…I am not sure yet! I haven’t SEEN IT YET.
        after all..every faith says “if you are not one of us.you are”..well.. just not good!
        and this we fight…every day. it comes out in different ways
        as far as how we are MADE by faith… He says “your foes will be of your own household FOR MY SAKE even mother and father puts sons/daughter to death”
        ?
        and He even makes references to it being YOUR JOY that will make them incensed and hate you.
        now look
        we don’t teach our children this way! we would be putting them all into mental institutions and making them paranoid if we told them “count it joy when all people revile you hate you kill you”
        ummmmm
        a parent who truly loves their child… wont really say that but PROTECT their child… as other verses elude to as well
        doesn’t mean I am going against Jesus as I LIVED THIS experience fully word for word. it happened to me in full
        that’s why verses mention “another side”
        daughter zion with TWO “dreaded kings”
        and a verse that says “we ought to have done both and not “left the other undone”
        this is all really something!
        RESTORE families
        “TURN THE HEARTS of the fathers BACK to their children and the childrens hearts BACK to their fathers LEST I come and strike the earth with a CURSE”
        back..means…. it was turned away as well
        daughter zion is “tossed to and fro on the tempest on every wind of doctrine and NEVER comforted”
        if something is not natural and not right… you wont ever be comforted.
        and she is therefore VERY IMPORTANT all throughout scripture
        DAUGHTER who IS “my people” find your way back…..
        familial relationships are based on how they are SUPPOSED to be,
        maybe not what they ARE.
        turn the hearts back
        its like a switcheroo happened in heaven (does say who sits on throne has changed more than once) and we find ourselves loving the father… a stranger one.. it happens! people re enact this…

        Liked by 1 person

  4. Susan says:

    here is allah arguing with Jesus
    Jesus statement “let your eye be SINGLE and full of light ”
    allah “,my enemy dajjal is a one eye and allah is not one eye”
    this isn’t about eyes.
    Jesus said one eye means you are one or the other
    all good
    or all evil
    he made that clear
    allah says he is both good and evil and balances the two then. so he is struggling as it says to “perfect his lampstand” and people hate it. (because you cant apply light to dark in such a way as to bring evil to light)
    they are both saying the same thing really. but these mental concepts make people kill each other in frustration as a narcissist of not GETTING the light
    and “trying”
    the ways people “try” to be good and holy are ATROCIOUSLY evil.
    and put out light naturally.
    the LIGHT is in a childs eyes
    it gets put out by adults ..or when the child grows up itself…BY certain things we all know.
    the eternal “unbothered” child whose light remains in his eyes is in the works.:)
    not by effort
    not by trying or religion
    its natural
    faith with repentance and never sinning(offending a child) again will keep light going too.
    but seeking to change the rules because it didn’t work for YOU wont work.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. katiesdream2004 says:

    This was a really interesting post. A relative of mine is a geneticist with whom I had this discussion. Her conclusion as a genetic researcher for disease is that you can have a predisposition but it takes an environmental trigger (nurture) to make the genetic switch turn on. Nature and nurture create that perfect storm of misery I suspect. I think as well that all human beings have the predisposition to be narcissist but in a civil society we get conditioned to control ourselves. Our brains do release chemicals for love and bonding which can be disrupted

    In my brothers case the narcissism developed from constant reinforcement that as a male he was special. The abuse from my mother in his case was to treat him like he was her knight in shining armour. She pumped up his entitlement and few woman were good enough for him. In all sorts of ways he was an emotional surrogate husband which was horrible for his development. Both my siblings are tremendously entitled, consider themselves superior to the vast majoring of people something my mother actively fed.

    Liked by 1 person

    • luckyotter says:

      It sounds like your brother is a really good case study for the nature/nurture argument. It makes a lot of sense. You and I , being offspring of Ns, could actually have the gene for it, but it wasn’t activated because the scapegoating type of role we played didn’t allow it to be activated. In som ways it’s much worse to be a golden child. Not to mention it’s impossible for anyone to live up to such high standards. Most narcissists are also perfectionists.

      Liked by 2 people

      • katiesdream2004 says:

        It seems that no one in a narcissistic family knows what it means to be loved for whom they are. They don’t even understand what life is outside an imprisoning role . Scapegoats are the lucky ones if their role pushes them to escape the lies that bind the whole family in a constricted life

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    • Susan says:

      I grew up with that as well 😦 my brothers were as males special automatically. my mother also treated her sons/my brothers as the knights. they could do no wrong. and be coddled afterwards even when they did do wrong. but I would be severely reprimanded if I even mentioned any wrong doing. she crippled them. they lived at home into their 30’s and yelled and screamed in her face if she even asked for $100 rent.
      she did ask for it .
      she didn’t want them to ever move out/leave her.
      she created monsters!
      for when they did move out and she was the one who needed a place to stay they actually turned their backs on her and called her a burden! unbelievable. but because I was the one she pitted them against, to this day they feel superior to me. and angry at ME and you know why?
      because she was wrong and I have nothing to do with it.
      I am STILL the scapegoat. an imaginary story they both made up in their minds,which came crumbling down before them both and so I am still at fault somehow. I don’t take it though. like I used to.they all got to see my tears , crying and freaking out daily.
      I have no more tears but I do have a “depersonalization” type of bewilderment!! so it probably is STILL some sort of my caring!
      I am sure even my numbness and bewilderment is to them still somehow a display. and these people seem to want ANY KIND of display. emotional or lack of emotion. is STILL “due to them” and that’s all they want. how can you escape.? if even your lack is to them a reaction.
      numbness is a reaction
      hate anger and even INDIFFERENCE is a “reaction” TO THEM
      I wonder if I will ever understand this.
      the only part that we are saying and that is simply that “abuse is NOT OK” is still the stumblingblock. still the thing denied.
      they want us to care while abused.
      its something no one can agree to. but the standstill seems to go forever.
      they never say the truth “we cant expect you to care while we abused you” we are sorry for abuse”
      scapegoats are peculiar creatures!
      to them we seemed to still care during abuse. when what we cared about was that it would stop.
      I bet to them we are the foghorn, witness in heaven during our scapegoat time so they just deny deny deny. and say we made it up. like “oh no she is in that spot” that “testimony spot” in heavens ears or something. NOT scared of us or offending US but “someone else” -God? then what do they think of HIM??? that He is somehow bad too?(He also doesn’t care about you). its a phenomenon.

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  6. dray0308 says:

    Reblogged this on Dream Big, Dream Often and commented:
    Take a quick sec and Follow Lucky Otter’s Haven!!

    Liked by 1 person

  7. Thank you for this, I have started reading up on the subject to gain some insight into myself. The impact from generation to generation is significant I think. My Grandmother was an only child and it was my Mother’s opinion that she had been terribly spoiled by her own doting parents. My mother never got along with her own mother then as a result of her own neglectful childhood. They constantly fought and their relationship ended bitterly with no reconciliation. She always told us growing up that my grandmother was a narcissist. The terribly irony is my Mother displays strong narcissistic characteristics herself although she is obviously blind to them. And so they are products of the different extremes of parenting you mentioned above. You write about my family tree! Sadly the consequences in the lives of my 4 siblings and myself include another narcisist (my youngest sister who was and still is treated worst by her the out of all of us), depression, anxiety, alcohol and drug abuse and two failed marriages. Such a tragic legacy from two sweet loving doting great grand parents!!! I would love to be able to ‘fix’ my Mum but sadly that’s seemingly impossible.

    Liked by 1 person

    • luckyotter says:

      It’s definitely generational. I’m sorry your narc mother smeared your grandmother, but that’s what they do. That’s interesting it’s your little sister who was the scapegoat child who is the narc in your family. While scapegoats can defintiely be narcissists, it’s more common for the N child to be the favored or Golden child. Is she a covert or overt narcissist?

      Like

      • I’m not sure of the differences between the two types so would have to look at that in more detail. I think that one of my other sisters, who is the second last child would be the golden child. She has achieved the most business success, is gorgeous looking and sweet natured, my mother says my father loved her the most!! Sorry to hear the news about your father, mine passed away 16yrs ago and I’m still mourning.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Susan says:

          mine passed away in 1995 and for the last few years especially ive felt like I “saw” him! in other men. id be out and about.. maybe at the store, in traffic or on the metro, at the Dr’s office.. and id see a man with the exact same facial features and body structure but most of all temperament/demeanor/facial expressions… and id just kind of stare… id feel drawn.. like I want to talk to them
          one time one came up to me and said I was an angel.. he said “you must be an angel or something” just out of the blue.. for no particular reason as I didn’t do anything..
          it makes me feel good,bad and creepy all at once.
          you know how,living or passed,….there are ‘twins’ out there or people with such similar facial characteristics AND mannerisms……I feel drawn to engage in conversation with someone who is very much “like” my father. but mostly I just get scared and walk away.
          but I never forget these encounters and keep replaying them in my mind.
          the scary conclusion I keep coming to.. is that I never got the chance to really get to KNOW my father. nor he,me. it was too strained. he was always in the next room for decades with me.. home every day/night.. but even ONE full conversation was never had that I can recall.
          but it still feels unresolved. I will not work out anything with my father,which is private between father and daughter….with strangers.
          I feel intrigue when I see someone who resembles him, as per interest/conversation sake.
          but I will not work anything out with any man… having to do with my father.
          whole religions seek to do that with YOU
          an individual woman with your ONE and ONLY father
          and they seek authority over you…I am just not into that nonsense
          (I used to let church have authority over me ..and inadvertently my father daughter relationship.they made it clear that was THEIR place and it is NOT)
          like I said
          they can say that to his face
          spiritually speaking:)

          Liked by 1 person

  8. Izrael says:

    I felt that narcissism is a complex issue that still needs to be researched more upon. There are many contributing factors that allow one to have such condition especially now it is considered as a mental illness. While genetics does have an impact if one suffers that condition, environmental factors also play a huge part in blossoming the condition. More needs to be done for others to understand this a complex disorder.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. i think of myself as the meat in the sandwich. My mother was totally NPD and both my daughters have it to a lesser extent. yet, while they were growing up I fell over backwards to love them and do everything different. Maybe I went too far? I only know I did my best.

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  10. michelle213norton says:

    I remember when I first learned about the whole nature v nurture debate, I knew from the start that it was both!! Those who see the world in black and white frustrate me as I see things in full color!

    Liked by 1 person

    • luckyotter says:

      I used to be a black and white thinker–all the different colors are SO much prettier! I would never go back…

      Liked by 1 person

    • Susan says:

      yes,it is always both. the “versus” means “as contrasted” to or “compared” to in control studies, like taking twins with same dna and seeing what remains the same and what is changed due to environment. good treatment vs bad treatment. how some things remain the same therein! our inner resiliency vs outer “influence” is of paramount importance to a human as we PLAN our lives and yes BREED them. with people of our choosing… its all very important
      some traits are passed down we say behaviourally,yes that can be dangerous also (creating caste systems and racism etc) ‘
      well every race has its stars.. people say… oh, youre dating so and so what good stock! doctors and inventors in that family etc
      also,no matter the “pedigree” if the family is on drugs and known to be abusive and unmotivated in life, one would say “steer clear of them” even if they are geniuses… so nurture also in questioned there. I guess its not a versus. nurture IS NATURE. your “nature to nurture” is also seen as important as IQ and talents…. because without it, you wont even use your talents. you must know WHY you are using them and care too.
      this is more how people talked in the 50’s
      in a Utopia mindset, there is so much weeding out to do they feel…
      crazy!
      it means we think other humans are cattle to us and of use…
      its scary to me.
      whole other story, but I noticed this mindset of studying these things for the purpose of getting the best of the best….
      sometimes its self improvement and societal improvement
      but all too often its an outside looking in “study”
      and you become a commodity
      ive found this in cultures and religions. their WORDING about all the laws and rules of living life are as if you were raising the best cattle.(especially rules regarding women)

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      • michelle213norton says:

        I would just point out how you have most children who grow up in chaos tend to live in chaos all their lives and yet some rise above it. People are individuals and respond in different ways to their upbringing no matter what their genes. Some kids go bad even when raised in a perfectly good environment. That’s why it’s not necessarily appropriate to blame parents. A most of them are doing the best they can!

        Liked by 1 person

        • Susan says:

          yes I completely agree. what ive learned in all of this is not to be quick to blame parents as well.in fact some can even be victims of their children. ‘society’ gets involved and children abuse/manipulate that as well .so many facets.
          bad parents / good kids and good parents/bad kids. definitely happens.
          I was raised in chaos then lived in it.. then rose above…
          and people seem to recognize it in me..and try to bring me back in it as ive said in other posts…
          strangers!
          wow what nerve.
          therefore..my personal weapon I use for peace of mind is now always that I say inside myself whenever a stranger antagonizes me I say to myself inside “say that to my father”
          even if my father and I didnt get along, even IF he was the worst person on earth, which he wasn’t.. I will still say to anyone “say that to my father” I mean I PICTURE it and then anything anyone does or says to me looks so absurd as to just vanish away before me.
          that’s when my family can see how absurd they are/have been
          its when a stranger tries to be “part of the immediate family”
          not sure I am explaining this right. its yet another phase I am going through as ive had many. this seems to be my method lately. my defense mechanism or whatever
          its not the “father” I had.. its the one he is supposed to be and I am content with that.
          I am content with being my own father in a sense or projecting him.

          Liked by 2 people

  11. miss kitty says:

    My husbands father was not wanted by his father and his father was a big shot play writer and actor and orchestra conductor. He also coach many famous opera singers. His mother was an actress in Hollywood 30 yrs younger than her husband. The child she had was against the wishes of the father. The father neglected the baby and only when age 12 saw him as a tool to gain more popularity in Hollywood. When the son wasn’t into hours of practicing piano and had no signing voice and didn’t find having parts in movies to be all that much fun the father saw no use for the son. He Became a embarrassment to the father. The mother then doubly spoiled the son making up for the fathers rejection . The mother who was young when birthing her son wasn’t in an intimate relationship, she was raised in a convent until age 17. Very Catholic these people were. The son was only allows to stand in the shadows never allowed to be in his fathers presence. The son became a designer of luxury hotels across the county. Until the day the dad died the son was told in verbal and actions that he still was not accepted or good enough. My husbands father made his two sons compete against each other their entire growing up years. His father was abusive and had many affairs,

    My husband just like him. I honestly think my husbands gay too.

    Liked by 1 person

  12. Thank you very much. I’m researching any and everything I can on this topic. Your information is extremely insightful. Many thanks. 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

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